Hi folks,

Sorry to start up such a potentially boring topic, but I am shortly moving to a new post and have been told by the Rector to name my own fees for weddings and funerals (oh how tempting! ). The church has a proficient choir of trebles and men who do the full 'Cathedral' repertoire, and prospective wedding couples are encouraged to book the choir to present choral items at the ceremony, so most weddings will be more ambitious than "Two hymns. Traditional in and out".

As I'm not a member of the RSCM, I'm unable to view their guidelines with regard to minimum fees. So I'd very much appreciate hearing what colleagues charge, if you're willing to divulge, please.

I'm also considering applying a blanket fee to weddings to cover 'family' videos, rather than applying an extra fee if couples choose to divulge that they know the wedding will be videoed, having been bitten several times in the past. I'd be interested to hear how widespread applying such a fee is among the profession.

Thank you in advance.

My church does this (and has done for at least the last 5 years). We make it very clear to couples that they have our permission to video and there is no need to be surreptitious about it (as if they would...)

My church does exactly this as well.

AJS

We have been and done this topic at least twice before in recent years. The trick is to assume (charge for) that a video is always present (even a mobile phone counts...) and give a discount if there is none at the ceremony. I have only had to refund once, and that was before mobile phones.
The other thing is to charge what you think you are worth. The days of providing an organist for a wedding for 30 odd quid are, thankfully long gone. I would think that at least a hundred quid is fair, especially when you think how much the DJ is getting............

Where you are going I should think an absolute minimum of £100 for a wedding and £75 for funerals. I should have thought even £120 for the weddings there. Probably rather more funerals than weddings in that town?

Recent legislation prevents organisations like the ISM and RCO (both of which I belong to) and the RSCM (which I avoid like the plague) from suggesting fees. What they are able to do is issue complicated tables of average fees in various categories during the previous year. However, to a simple soul like me, they are even less clear than the Book of Common Prayer table of how to find the date of Easter after having first found its related Golden Number!

I find the best funeral fees on a freelance basis can got from services where you are booked direct by the Funeral Director and you negotiate the fee with them. These days they are often so grateful if they can find someone who even knows that the manuals are played with the hands and the pedals with the feet!

Malcolm

That's without video, I assume?

Yes. I've always doubled fees for videos.

Malcolm

Seriously, how bad is it now? I haven't played, other than at home, for over 25 years so am really out of touch. Maybe I should make myself known to the powers that be and earn a few extra pennies.

Thank you for your advice thus far. I appreciate it!


I thought we might have done so, and searched the board for a while before posting, but I couldn't find a topic where we discussed specific fee rates.

When I started doing freelance funerals seriously I sent a flyer round to all FDs in the area other than those under the umbrella of "Destiny". If they have a service at either a crematorium or church that cannot provide an organist of their own there are a few FDs who regularly contact me and I get on well with them. One who gives me regulalr work even gave a me a large bottle of sparkling wine at Christmas. They will also sometimes recommend me to other FDs in a wider area. I find that churches in the more rural areas, especially those in the commuter belt/London-Brighton railway line area tend to pay beter fees than town centre churches and one even offered to pay quite expensive taxi fares for me (which I gladly accepted). On the other hand, someone else I know in another part of south east England has tried all avenues to get funeral work but with little, if any, success.

I have said before on this Board, quite recently, that the crematorium owned and run by our City Council has two chapels and generally, especially in winter, they can keep a regular team of 5 or 6 organists quite happy with the level of work offered although the pay there is rather less than elsewhere.

Malcolm

Presumably the maority of Church weddings ask for the organ to be used, although in a Church some years ago in Swansea I wish the female organist had taken early retirement..
Last week I attended a funeral in Eltham crematorium and although the organist was in attendance (I could see him on the balcony) he played for just one minute in between the ramblings of the vicar.
No hymns were sung, and there was pre-recorded music so I wonder how much the organist would have been paid for 1 minutes work ?
Colin Richell.

£50 for funerals involving 20 bars and 6 verses, hence £1.80 per bar is not unusual around here. (£1.80 being a reasonable amount to spend in the bar)

AJS

Partly it's the time you have to be there for and certainly at our local crems they insist that you stay in the chapel until every mourner has left.

Malcolm

It is up to the family to decide how much music they want played on the organ, although this should be at the discretion of the Priest as to what is allowed. Both my Priest and I refuse inappropriate music. If an organist is booked and only plays 10 seconds , he has still travelled to the church, given up his time, and is entitled to his full fee. It should be presumed also that he has done so at the risk of losing work elsewhere in the meantime, given that funerals are arranged in advance. In about two cases per year I find a family who "don't want an organist", and typically they have no music at all.

Concerning weddings, in the case of video, I also double my fee. This is standard practice.

R

2010 Wedding fee is £120. If family recordings take place, we don't make an additional charge. We reserve the right to charge double fees should I or whoever is playing decide that there ought to be an additional fee,

You mean if they ask for a complete performance of Sorabji II, for instance?

How do you explain the additional video recording fee to prospective couples? I know it's to do with performance rights and copyright in my performance, but it can be difficult to put this across succinctly to those who have no idea, and I just wonder how others do it in order to avoid a reaction of utter astonishment that I should have the nerve to claim an additional fee for apparently doing nothing!

I include a contribution to the cost of the licence in the scale of fees I give to all potential marriage couples, and a differential fee for the organist. I tell them that when it is videoed the service becomes legally a public performance, and that the organist is a professional musician and deserves a performance fee if s/he is doing more than simply assisting at a service. I have not found anyone yet who wants to make an issue of this.

P.S. I think it's the duty of your vicar/minister/priest to do this, as s/he is responsible for ensuring that activities in the building comply with the law.

That presumes the priest wants to get involved. In one of my churches the Vicar does, and is right on the ball. The other Priest doesn't really involve himself. I have always explained the performance/copyright issue clearly, and only in one case was there any dispute at all. I suggested that the family may like to find their own organist, providing he is competant, and who may indeed be happy to waive the extra fee, but that as Parish Organist I was entitled to the basic fee. That settled that! I think so long as you are direct and courteous most accept such things. I also think it entirely appropriate to ask proper fees given that we are losing a weekend day. One cannot exactly go for a nice walk on the Yorkshire Hills with a wedding looming on a nice sunny day. Perhaps we should all start charging along the lines of Photographers, and also ask extra when the Bride is late.

Fashionably of course.

R

No Richard it doesn't. I know that there are priests who don't want to be involved, and this is not helpful to organists, but it is still their duty to do so. Clergy (especially Anglican ones) are very good at only doing the things they like or which fall in their comfort zone. It remains true, however, that they bear responsibility for everything which takes place in their churches.

It would avoid a lot of unnecessary argument and unpleasantness in Anglican chruches if parish priests weren't afraid to "get involved" and both face and resolve potential confrontational situations at an early stage instead of sitting in the wings, waiting until a situation has got completely out of hand and then panicking. I've seen it happen so many times although, mercifully, I have never been directly involved.

Malcolm

Typically it is the RC church that seems to avoid getting involved in such issues. I quite agree they should, but the reality is that often they don't. It is often difficult even to secure a decent salary!! I have experienced the most lamentable attitudes with the catholic church. In one instance, it had "never been the tradition of the church to have a paid organist" and it was inferred funeral fees would make up such a deficit. This I questioned, and even today the amount is low. Fortunately though, there is indeed a lot of extra work. Given the quality of the organ and the building, acoustic etc, I knew which side my bread was buttered when I took the post.

R

Going on from what I was saying earlier today, I have just been in a church where I know all the people involved fairly well. That church has all sorts of tensions and problems because people such as the director of music and the vicar don't actually talk to each other and discuss what they are each planning to do and what their vision is for the future. Like so many organists and vicars neither seems capable of telling anyone what they are going to do in a service until about five minutes before a service because neither of them is capable of deciding what they are going to do any earlier than that. Organists and vicars are both just as bad at this sort of thing.

Malcolm

[quote name='Malcolm Kemp' date='Mar 12 2010, 01:23 PM' post='51729']
Going on from what I was saying earlier today, I have just been in a church where I know all the people involved fairly well. That church has all sorts of tensions and problems because people such as the director of music and the vicar don't actually talk to each other and discuss what they are each planning to do and what their vision is for the future. Like so many organists and vicars neither seems capable of telling anyone what they are going to do in a service until about five minutes before a service because neither of them is capable of deciding what they are going to do any earlier than that. Organists and vicars are both just as bad at this sort of thing.

Malcolm
[/quote

Oh I get on fine with the clergy where I am, perhaps I am a rarity!

R

Interesting arrangement at my place: we have the same fee for weddings and funerals (currently £70.00) which of course is doubled if videoed. One can feel underpaid for the former (unless it's videoed) and overpaid for the latter. (Certainly it's embarrassing to try and ask anyone to dep for me at a wedding for £70.00 unless it's my own Assistant who lives nearby the Church and is retired from his former day job...)

Anyone else experienced that?

No, but I would make the point that, generally speaking, weddings need more preparation time and more time at the church on the day.

Malcolm

It has been interesting to read how different churches arrange the question of wedding and funeral fees. In the benefice in which I operate the fees are agreed with the joint PCCs and form part of the standard charge made to those who are about to be matched or dispatched. Thus, in effect, the church pays each organist directly and we do not have to negotiate with either customers or funeral directors, although on occasion I have charged extra for an additional rehearsal. Videos are so commonplace now that we gave up the charging of a special fee long ago. The current fees for all of those who play in the various churches are, for a wedding, £85 and for a funeral £60, although, sadly, they happen comparatively rarely in our area; I think the bracing country air in this part of Worcestershire encourages all of them to live in sin for a very long time.

David Harrison

I have been following this thread with great interest.

I play for two churches - one Roman Catholic and one Methodist. The Roman Catholic church in question does not pay organists for their services, and probably would not be too pleased if any hint concerning payment was even suggested! Very often, a lot of Catholic churches over here claim that they simply do not have the funds to pay an organist. This is of course completely untrue, especially when one considers that in your average Maltese church there are roughly five or six masses every day - all bringing in a fairly princely sum from the offertory. However, having said this, they are always most grateful for the services offered.

On the other hand, the Methodist church here, whose income appears to be considerably smaller, are always very willing where remuneration is concerned, and also very willing to discuss fees with the organist where funerals and weddings are concerned, and negotiate with other parties on the organists' behalf.

VA

Or the groom - that happened once to me and I was getting a trifle worried as I was due to play another wedding in another church later that day where a friend from university was getting married. He ws 3/4 hour late! Fortunately I was able to get the my friend's wedding in time.

But the best of the lot was when the priest was late! Bride and father were waiting at the door of the church while he was, unvested, lighting the candles and checking the books were open at the right page and during all this I was trying to keep the congregation entertained - with decreasing enthusiasm and, I'm sure, equally decreasing success!

Peter

Recently the string quartet in which my wife plays was booked to play the pre-service music in a Cornish church. They were to accompany the bride up the aisle, but all the hymns were to be played by the organist. At the start of the service the bride duly entered and the priest announced the first hymn. Silence. The priest looked round at the organ. Empty bench. No organist! He never did show up.

Until 3 years ago I was paid £30 for a wedding with no extra fee if a video recording was made. When I realised how far below the going rate this was, I dug in my heels and after some refreshing exchanges of letters (when they asked me to wait until the following year so that they could adjust the wedding fees to accommodate my request ) they agreed to pay me what I asked for, which was £60 - I didn't like to push my luck by asking for double the fee for a video.

Later, I noticed the fee had been raised to £70 without my asking, and they add on another £10 if it is to be recorded. Not sure why they don't just ask me what my fee is - perhaps there is an element of control freakery somewhere.
According to the schedule for 2010 there are over 40 weddings between March and November and more may be added.

I am nowhere near as well qualified as most contributors to this forum so I suppose all is as it should be

You are extremely lucky. I don't know of any church within quite a wide radius of Brighton (not southwards, obviously!) that gets anything like 40 weddings a year. Even major parish churches are lucky if they get 7 or 8.

Malcolm

I'm 2 down, 40 to go....

Not for nothing is Brighton known as Sin city!

Malcolm

Making idle chit-chat with the vicar of a rather deprived suburban parish, I casually enquired if the organ got much use, for weddings and so on.

He mulled that one over for a moment and replied, "We don't get many actual weddings...we do get a lot of preparations..."

Oh dear. 8-)

H

Quote "When the Bride is late"
We do not allow late brides in our two church benefice.
Last year a bride turned up almost an hour late, with not so much as a "sorry"
When I asked one of the ushers what was the cause of the delay I was promtly told "Chill out man, it's a wedding"
We noe allow a bride to be five minute's late no more. If she is later than this the wedding cermony does not take place, and of course no refund of fees!
Guess what, all our brides now arrive in plenty of tome to have the obligitory potos taken, and the service stars at the alloted time..

Apologies for the typos in the above

I have once before shared the story of a bride who was almost an hour late even though she lived about two doors down from the church.

Having got through all the wedding music about two times over in my "bumper book of wedding and funeral music" and still no show, I took in a deep breath and started playing some of the funeral music.

At which point she arrived.

Unless we have 3 or 4 booked on the trot, I feel I have to show some measure of understanding when the bride is late. I too have sinned, having been 20 minutes late for my own wedding over 30 years ago.
Pots and kettles etc.

Whilst we are talking of late brides, my latest trick is to tell the bride that if the wedding starts at 1.00pm then the bells stop at 1.00pm and not a minute later. Since the bellringers have already rung half an hour before the start of the service then it doesn't really seem appropriate to make them go on ringing. Same principle for the organist! It is amazing how when the bells do stop ringing there is an absolute screaming silence!

All this said, there are stupid brides, but there are some for whom the lateness is beyond their control. Like the driver who got lost taking a short-cut through the maze that is Prestatyn!

One very eminent cathedral organist once told me, he gives them 5 minues, and then silence.

If I stopped playing 5 minutes into late time 'silence' isn't the word I use to describe the level of noise in church... It's a rare treat when the guests are quiet and I can hear what I'm playing. I used to take them on with the tutti, but these days I sit and 'play', and then pull out some stops if the noise level dips!!!

Yes, I know what you mean! Its school confirmation on Sunday, and it resembles a huge social gathering with little respect for what is actually taking place.

I once attended, as a guest, a wedding in a large and quite well known church in Northampton. The organist* was improvising the music before the bride's arrival and when she was around fifteen minutes late the theme of a popular Christmas Carol started, intermittently, to appear. Before she arrived some 20 minutes late it had become much more obvious, to the clear amusement of the choir and quite a large proportion of the audience.

*Not the regular, but an uncle of the bride lest it be thought impolite! I gather that he was auditioned before agreement was given for him to play.

Anyone ever experienced a 'cause or impediment'?

At one wedding for which I played many years ago, the Vicar warned me before hand that there was the strong likelyhood of someone raising a 'cause or impediment' when the question was asked.
The plan was that, should this happen, I should play as loudly as possible whilst the bride, groom, families and whoever raised the 'cause', retired to the vestry to sort it all out.
To my great disappointment, the incident didn't happen.

DT

At one church where I played, when weddings were more popular, 3 or 4 back to back on a Saturday was not uncommon. A strict rule on lateness was imposed after one day when the vicar cancelled a wedding service because the bride was more than 30 minutes late. He explained to the congregation that they were welcome to stay to the next wedding if they felt suitably deprived of a service. The bride did eventually turn up about 10 minutes before the next one, but I believe they were not cordially introduced.

On the subject of when to stop playing, on a Sunday morning I stop at 11.00 prompt. For weddings I give them 10 minutes over, usually growing in banality or cheek as time passes. Popular music is a wonderful resource for this.

This one, given the nature of many of the people getting married, and the British weather, from The Carpenters is particularly sweet.

Talking to myself and feeling old
Sometimes I'd like to quit
Nothing ever seems to fit
Hangin around, nothing to do but frown
Rainy days and Mondays always get me down

What I've got they used to call the blues
Nothing is really wrong
Feeling like I don't belong
Walking around like some kind of lonely clown
Rainy days and Mondays always get me down

Funny but it seems I always wind up here with you
Its nice to know somebody loves me
Funny but it seems that it's the only thing to do
To run and find the one who loves me

What I feel is come and gone before
No need to talk it out
We know what it's all about
Hanging around, nothing to do but frown
Rainy days and mondays always get me down


AJS

If I am feeling sarcastic or when the choir ladies sit down in disgust when the signing of the register goes on to ridiculous lengths, I wheel out Michel Legrand's 'If it takes forever I will wait for you'.
Sadly, I fear these touches of irony go wide of the target in most cases.